RECORDED Wed 19 Apr 2025
SUMMARY KEYWORDS: Emotionally based school avoidance, adolescent mental health, school attendance, anxiety, pandemic impact, early intervention, family support, school transitions, bullying, educational trajectory, parental concerns, school collaboration, mental health professionals, flexible school models, community concern.
SPEAKERS: Glenn Melvin, Megan Gilmour
Megan Gilmour 00:00
This episode is proudly brought to you by the TPG Telecom Foundation dedicated to creating opportunities to improve the health, wellbeing and education of Australian communities in need.
Hi, I’m Megan Gilmour, MissingSchool, Co-founder and CEO, and this is Live & Learn. This is the podcast that unearths insights at the intersection of health and education, building a powerful alliance to keep kids with complex health conditions connected to school from anywhere.
The podcast is recorded on Ngunnawal land, and we acknowledge and pay respect to the traditional owners of this land and the land on which you’re listening.
Megan Gilmour 00:49
Welcome to our weekly webcast, a place to zero in on the interplay between health and education and to amplify the voices of those supporting school students to navigate their educational journeys, despite complex health challenges, and today on live and learn we have Glenn Melvin.
Dr. Glenn Melvin is an associate professor and clinical psychologist at Deakin University’s School of Psychology. His research focuses on adolescent mental health, youth, depression, anxiety, school attendance and emotionally based school avoidance. He practices with students and families experiencing school attendance challenges. Welcome, Glenn, we’re so excited to have you on Live & Learn today.
Glenn Melvin 01:34
Thanks so much, Megan, and real pleasure to be with you here today talking about this important topic.
Megan Gilmour 01:40
Yes, it’s an incredibly important topic, and generally, like today, we’re here to talk about supporting school connections for students with complex medical and mental health conditions, and this is right in that wheelhouse. So, let’s head to the first question.
So, Glenn, tell us how emotionally based school avoidance impacts kids and why it’s something every Australian needs to know and care about.
Glenn Melvin 02:09
Good question. Well, emotionally based school avoidance occurs when a child experiences emotional distress about the prospect of going to school or being at school, and that results in them staying home or being very resistant or reluctant to attend school. So, they stay home and miss school with their parents’ knowledge, and they know they’re at home.
I think this issue has really come to be a community concern since the pandemic. There’s been a lot of reports that there’s a lot more kids experiencing this sort of challenge in getting along to school.
It can have a substantial impact on kids’ educational trajectory where they miss days, weeks and sometimes months and even years of school. And we know that education is so protective, and for our outcomes into adulthood. So, I think it is something that people need to know about.
And for those whose kids may not have any challenges going to school, I think it is important for them also to understand this challenge, because there might be families in their school community who need their understanding and compassion and support perhaps along the way.
Megan Gilmour 03:46
Indeed, it’s definitely an issue for all Australians and people around the world actually – based on what we, what we know. So many people probably assume things about emotionally based school avoidance. What’s the million-dollar question you get from parents or loved ones when their young person’s experience is emotionally based school avoidance?
Glenn Melvin 04:11
Yes, parents often have a lot of worries around you know, are they are they going to get back? Are they going to be able to go on to do what they hope to do in adulthood?
So, there’s a lot of worry around the impact on their schooling and friendships and so forth, not just the academics. So, parents express a lot of those concerns.
The other one that comes up is, is this naughty behavior? Are they misbehaving? And in the morning do they just want a day off school? And when it is emotionally based avoidance, it’s not, that’s not a helpful way of understanding what’s happening. It’s usually a response to feeling so anxious and overwhelmed at the prospect of going to school that your child doesn’t have the capacity to attend.
Megan Gilmour 05:13
Yes, and on the back of that, what’s the most important thing that you want them to know, the family, the student?
Glenn Melvin 05:22
Look, I think the first thing is, and the critical things moving forward, is to understand what’s behind the behavior. Now, there isn’t one stressful event or thing that’s common to kids and teens that have emotion-based school avoidance; it can be a huge range of things.
And I think if I could sum it up to one concept, it’s being curious for schools and parents to be curious about what’s – why is this happening now? What might have happened, what might the young person be experiencing that makes this such a challenge to get to school?
In my experience, there’s a huge range of things that can be underlying and the problem. So, it’s about being curious about, what could that be for their child?
Megan Gilmour 06:23
That’s a wonderful way to lead people or a recommendation to make, because curiosity is so much softer, isn’t it, and remains open. And I imagine, as I’m sure we’ll get to talk about is, you know, this is an ongoing discovery process, too.
I remember my own adolescent children and primary school children often found it very hard to explain their emotions, or what was going on for them as well, maybe not having a framework for processing what’s going on for them, so that curiosity from adults around them would definitely assist in opening up discovery.
So, tell us Glenn, if you’re willing, we’d love to know what brought you into the world of emotionally based school avoidance?
Glenn Melvin 07:29
I guess it harks back a few years now. One of my first jobs as a psychologist was working with adolescents experiencing depression and often suicidal.
So, I spent a number of years working in clinics with that focus, and we had an amount of success in supporting those sorts of teens and their families in terms of their mood improved, they were feeling some hope for the future, and sleeping better, eating better, those sorts of things improved.
But I noticed a lot weren’t attending school regularly or regularly enough to really further their education. I thought, well, you know, this is a bit of a gap. We’re getting on top of some of the symptoms, but those more functional or adaptive markers weren’t there.
So that really highlighted to me the gap, and the center that I was working at had a history back to the 1990s of working in the space that’s emotional based school avoidance. So, we established a clinic, and I guess furthered the research in how we might respond to support young people and their families when this was happening. And I guess my career and this space has evolved from there, but that’s where I started out.
Megan Gilmour 09:00
Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you so much for your work. And I want to acknowledge there your mention of this phenomenon, if we can call it that, going right back, or at least documented from the 1990s, and you did mention earlier that COVID seemed to increase it or accelerate the identification of it. It goes by a few other names as well. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Glenn Melvin 09:37
Yes, sure, and I guess some people might know it as school refusal. Before that, it was called school phobia. School phobia you don’t hear so much, sometimes school refusal is heard a bit, but some people don’t like that one because it suggests, you know, that the young person is being deliberately oppositional, and then, as you said, this isn’t about naughty kids. And that’s not the right idea.
So, I think emotionally based avoidance is better, and whether it’s perfect, I’m not sure, but I do know from some work I did with colleagues, we looked back at the history of this through the academic literature into education and mental health. We found a first mention in 1932, and it’s had about 20 odd names over the years. So, I’m very aware that the name might evolve further in years to come, but I think emotionally based school avoidance is the best we have now.
Megan Gilmour 10:46
Yes, thank you for enlightening us, because that’s picked up a few things there. I guess, for the whole time that kids have been going to school, this has probably existed in one form or one label or another.
Glenn Melvin 11:02
Yes, it probably started when the first school started, would be my view.
Megan Gilmour 11:08
So that kind of cause and symptom, it’s a really interesting one. So, let’s dive a little deeper. So, knowing all that you know, what’s your biggest hope for families, for kids with emotionally based school avoidance as part of their experience, and your hope when navigating this, this issue?
Glenn Melvin 11:32
Yes, yes. Well, I guess zooming out. My hope is that we get better at early identification, I think families are often struggling to figure out what’s going on. You know, the child’s perhaps complaining of being sick and nausea, headaches and these sorts of symptoms that end up with the best explanation for them is that they’re anxious, and this is how they’re expressing their anxiety.
And so, this can go on, and then things get stuck. And, you know, people are cross because the child’s not attending school, and things can get entrenched. So, my hope is that we can get on to things much earlier, and so that’s perhaps one for the future.
But for now, what I think we need is perhaps more effective ways of collaborating, because this isn’t just something for parents to deal with. It isn’t something just for schools to deal with, and it certainly isn’t something just for students to deal with. It is a systems issue. It needs to have all parties working effectively together. They all have roles and responsibilities towards the child’s education.
Megan Gilmour 13:01
Yes, this is a really strong point to make, especially on the back of your mentioning that perceptions can go to the student misbehaving or being non-compliant or just wanting to squib off school and being able to see this as an issue for everyone.
And of course, anything to do with protective issues, to do with young people and children as well, is everyone’s job.
Glenn Melvin 13:41
Absolutely
Megan Gilmour 13:42
Yes, somehow things, especially when they’ve accelerated, seem to have pointed also to parents, including mothers. So that’s also something just to flag for people listening, and I hear Glenn (you) saying that you’re not alone, and that if you’re a parent listening, it’s not your fault, the kids, it’s not your fault, and for teachers too, somehow this is happening, and it’s not anyone’s one person’s issue to deal with.
So, you mentioned this, but I’ll ask it again. Is there a risk of delayed – the word diagnosis is here in my questions – but I don’t think that’s quite right but let us know what you think. So, is there a risk of delayed identification, or are most cases picked up easily?
Glenn Melvin 14:47
No, I believe there is a risk of delayed identification and that circles back to your earlier question about, why is this important for everyone to know? I think the more people are aware of it the less of that we’ll have.
But I guess the risk with delayed identification is that more school would be missed. And I guess we know that the more school is missed, it’s often harder to get back into education. And you know, friendships can be impacted by missing school as well. Kids move on to play with others and so forth.
And also, it’s a stressful situation in the family, and parents are worried – ‘missed another day, missed another day.’ It builds up, builds up for parents, and they’re feeling more stressed and more desperate. And so, the earlier I think schools are identifying, families are identifying and putting their hands up to say, we need to figure this out with the school or with a health professional, the better.
Megan Gilmour 15:58
And it sounds like, well, in the case of anxiety, it’s often a case where it might start somewhere, but then when it’s got to do with school, that anxiety is increasing the more time that’s off school,
Glenn Melvin 16:15
Absolutely, absolutely.
Megan Gilmour 16:17
And then families are getting anxious together as well. So, there’s a cycle then happening.
Where might people go for an identification point, or in some cases, maybe even a diagnosis, if that, if that’s applicable to some students?
Glenn Melvin 16:43
Yes, I think there’s a couple of starting points. And first is the school. And I think parents should approach whoever they’re most comfortable with at the school, that might be a wellbeing staff member, a teacher, or level coordinator, head of house. Speaking to the school, I think, is the really important first step. Even if you want to know what this is, reach out earlier, the better.
Beyond that, I think speaking to a GP, because anxiety can be a bit tricky. As I said, it can look like stomach aches and headaches for some kids, these sorts of things. So, we need to get those checked out. Is it some gastrointestinal problem? We need to know that if it’s not anxiety, that’s of course, equally important. So, I think some health checkup with a doctor is always a good idea when, if parents are starting to get a bit concerned about too many days off.
Megan Gilmour 17:47
They’re good tips, because there could be an underlying physiological situation fueling anxiety, and then that’s going into a cycle as well. So, it could be a whole range of things, actually, a confluence of things, which comes back to your point about curiosity. And you know, we’re complex as humans, aren’t we?
Glenn Melvin 18:14
Oh yes, yes.
Megan Gilmour 18:16
So, it’s rarely ever just one thing, especially when we get to physiology and mental health. There’s such an interplay there as well.
Glenn Melvin 18:26
Absolutely, absolutely, of all the families I’ve worked with, I can’t think of anywhere it’s one thing. No, it’s never one thing.
Megan Gilmour 18:35
It’s a Venn diagram, as we say,
Glenn Melvin 18:38
It’s a combination of things. Yes.
Megan Gilmour 18:44
And that leads to the question about what kind of complications do kids in this circumstance face, clinically or otherwise, you know, socially, emotionally, academically?
Glenn Melvin 18:59
Yes. I guess some complications can include feeling, I guess, disconnected from the school community, and feeling like you’re different in some way, to others, which can be very isolating.
It can be struggles with your academic work. And you know, particularly some subjects where what you do in one term builds on prior to particularly so for maths and for many students and so those can be complications. And then sort of, I guess, as mentioned, stress in the family. And those can be other complications.
And I guess longer term, we know that the more time you miss, the more likely you are to not finish your schooling. However, we do have a number of flexible options for people to, of course, continue their education beyond their schooling years.
And that said, we do have ways of supporting teens who aren’t attending school for whatever reason to connect with their peers outside of school hours, and with other hobbies and activities and the like. So, I guess these are complications that families face, but they are surmountable. I think that’s an important message.
Megan Gilmour 20:32
Might bullying come into it as well?
Glenn Melvin 20:35
Yes, particularly in adolescence, I find that bullying and social anxiety – so anxiety about social situations, what people are going to think of me, what people might say about me, people think I’m going to look weak, I look weird – these sorts of concerns are often one precipitant.
What might move someone from going to, you know, going along okay, to starting to drop off with their attendance. And this is an important one for parents to advocate with the school about, you know, coming up with a plan to stop the bullying, addressing this.
Megan Gilmour 21:21
Yes, yes. So, it’s such a complexity of cause and effect here, isn’t it? In your clinical experience, Glenn, for students who are experiencing emotionally based school avoidance, does that anxiety stop when they know they don’t have to go to school? Or is it still in the background as well?
Glenn Melvin 21:50
Yes, yes, that’s a really, really good question. What we tend to see is a temporary relief. So maybe there’s a fight in the morning. I don’t want to go. You can’t make me go. Slam the door, hide in the bathroom, you know, stressful, stressful mornings, and then parent says, ‘All right, don’t go. I’ve got to go to work’ or ‘got to sort things out with your brother’. And then there’s relief –‘Don’t have to go, don’t have to do the math test, don’t have to give that talk in class, or don’t have to, you know, see those kids who think I’m weird.’
And so, there’s that immediate relief and but that tends not to last. And then there’s the worries that you indicated earlier, like, ‘Oh, I’m going to have to redo my math test. I have to talk to the math teacher. Now I’ve missed what was happening in geography, social sciences’, you know, ‘I find it hard to talk to that teacher. How am I going to catch up’?
So, it starts to snowball from there. So, there’s temporary relief, but that avoidance of a feared kind of situation can have the opposite effect ultimately. This is why it often gets harder and harder over time for many teens and kids.
Megan Gilmour 23:20
Yes, and because school is an everyday thing, except for school holidays, year on year for 13 years, I imagine that cycle of anxiety is just ratcheting up, just at different points of the day, for different reasons, and round and round, as you say, immediate relief, and then at some point in the day, building up to worrying about tomorrow.
Glenn Melvin 23:50
Yes, yes,
Megan Gilmour 23:53
Wow. So how are siblings and peers of kids experiencing emotionally based school avoidance impacted, and what should we be across to do with siblings and peers?
Glenn Melvin 24:05
Yes, it’s a good point, because, as we’re discussing earlier, this is something that affects families. It’s not just perhaps the child who might be having the challenge in getting along to school.
So, I think it’s important for siblings to understand the behavior, understand why their sibling is having trouble getting along to school, to what’s developmentally appropriate that they can understand, you know. It might be around having a lot of stress at school, and that’s hard for them to manage.
And we can sometimes hear, ‘Well, you know, if he’s not going to school, why do I have to go to school?’ And I think that can be a tough one for parents to negotiate, but I think it’s around encouraging, and parents showing that different kids are having different situations at various points in time. And for them, you know, it’s important for them to keep going to school as it’s important for parents to keep working to support the sibling into education.
In terms of peers, I guess, I’m often guided by young people about what they want to tell their peers. But I am finding more and more that young people I work with are happy to tell their friends that they have anxiety, and that’s impacting upon their ability to get to school at the moment.
And I think we really want to encourage kids and teens to keep up with their friends. This is really important. It shouldn’t be oh, you’re not going to school, you’re banned from seeing your friends, it’s complete opposite. We want to strengthen those social connections, because that can make it a whole lot easier to go back into school.
So, we want to really keep kids playing basketball or going to swimming lessons and so forth with their peers. But usually, young people can guide us about how much they want their peers to know and talk about, you know, ways of messaging that.
Megan Gilmour 26:33
Yes. If there’s anything positive in the mental health issues facing our young people today, it’s perhaps that destigmatisation of it and the acknowledgement amongst peers may be a supporting factor in terms of at least disclosing it and declaring it, if not relieving the symptoms. But the destigmatisation
Is there any talk or notion or perception of copycatting, or there’s a contagion of this, I know, in some other part of problematic things to do with young people, I say ‘problematic’ in inverted commas, what’s your experience of that, or knowledge of that?
Glenn Melvin 27:26
Yes, I guess it’s only anecdotal in that I’ve worked, I guess, with families where there’s been multiple kids have challenges attending school, and often that’s because they might have a propensity for anxiety.
So, I think that there can be some element of that in some instances, but I think by and large, I find kids tend to want to attend school when they can. And you know that getting something out of that meeting friends or learning or having fun. It can be tremendously boring to be at home a lot of times, so I don’t think it’s a huge factor.
But I think, as I said, it’s important for parents to have those sorts of discussions about, you know, that the older or younger sibling’s having some challenges with this, that and the other, and that’s what’s happening, and also what support and adjustments are being made to foster them back into education. So, it’s not like they’re getting some free pass, and, you know, and happy days at home on the PlayStation. So, I think those sorts of conversations can reduce the risk of that kind of copycat.
Megan Gilmour 28:56
Yes, thank you for addressing that. And I mean, one of the things that I’ve said before is I don’t think any kid woke up, wakes up in the morning and says, I just like to stay home on my own and do nothing. It’s unlikely.
What is the current population of school age children experiencing emotionally based school avoidance. And if there is a known quantity here, how accurate is that data? Is it being tracked for example?
Glenn Melvin 29:30
Yes. And good question. I guess the short answer is, it’s not. And most of the data that we have certainly has its limitations. And so, this is one of the things that came out the Senate Inquiry into school refusal, as it was called then, and this is one of their recommendations from the Senate Inquiry that we needed to have better tracking and monitoring.
And so, this has been going on, as we’re saying for many years. It’s not just a new phenomenon, and we are certainly hearing a lot of community concern about it, but we don’t have good data at all, and that concerns me, because we might be very much under resourcing this issue and doing community disservice by not having enough or the right sort of supports available for families at the moment. So, I think it is a real national priority that we do get some good data on this issue that’s of concern to so many.
Megan Gilmour 30:46
And I can plug MissingSchool here and say that we’ve been working on this since 2012 to do with school data, school attendance data and arguing for the granularity, and still working for it across all of last year, where we had some policy success on that, but unfortunately, it didn’t go ahead strongly after we got it in 2022 but I feel confident that it is now firmly on the agenda.
It’s not as quick or as soon as we need or would like, but absolutely, at the systems level, if it can’t be seen, it’s very hard for policy makers to make decisions, and we need them so desperately.
So, this isn’t one of my usual questions, but it makes sense here. Why do you think this spiraled or escalated, whichever way is best look at it, after the pandemic?
Glenn Melvin 31:54
Yes, yes. I have a few theories. I can share my theories on it.
I think we saw with the pandemic declines in young people’s mental health, and particularly parents, reported, in a study we did at Deakin that there was more anxiety experienced. And you might say, well, that amount of that was probably normal in an abnormal kind of situation.
However, I think that might have sparked anxiety to, you know, ratchet up to a higher level for some kids, and that might have tipped them over into a point where good attendance became sort of tricky.
And the other factor, I think, that we saw, particularly in Victoria and perhaps the New South Wales, was schools opening and closing. And I guess one thing we know about school attendance problems is transition times can trigger them. And so, we see more emotionally based school avoidance occur at the start of the year, the start of the term, and these times where we’ve got to, you know, put away the swimmers and get back into the classroom – this adjustment and so forth. And the pandemic gave us a lot more of those. And going from, you know, homeschooling, but for everyone across the community, back into the classrooms, I think was a stressor for many kids.
So, on top of more anxiety, my theory is this has tipped a number of kids over into missing school due to this emotional distress. And then I guess what we know about anxiety is that it can be recurrent over time. So, another reason to get on top of it early.
So those are my best theories in, I guess, an environment where we don’t have great evidence necessarily.
Megan Gilmour 34:14
What’s the theory that has some substance to it? Because the pandemic was a globally traumatic event. And so, if we think about the relationship between trauma and anxiety, it would make sense that that you know a personal trauma can trigger anxiety and often does.
We know that children with chronic medical conditions and in medical treatment also have a large amount of anxiety, a large experience of anxiety and we also know, as you talked about, that transitions for those students in and out of school, very challenging in terms of anxiety as well. So that’s a different cause or a different circumstance, but a very similar human response to those factors.
And then we know also that if the issue started with a physical health condition, there’s a high likelihood of mental unwellness that can occur as well at various degrees and times and transitions.
Glenn Melvin 35:37
Yes,
Megan Gilmour 35:38
And that can also result in school nonattendance, not only for physical treatment, but also during transitions. So, and you and I have talked about this before, trying to remove those dichotomies between these different cases where chronic nonattendance occurs. And rather, as you say, look to look to the community solutions and what can be done, and identifying these things early and intervening with evidence-based approaches as early as possible to mitigate effects.
Glenn Melvin 36:19
Yes, yes, indeed.
Megan Gilmour 36:24
So, this one we might skip, but I think it’s worth asking to quantify. So, do kids with emotionally based school avoidance currently miss a lot of school?
Glenn Melvin 36:37
Yes, I think it varies. And I guess the short answer is, don’t know. And there are some studies that have measured that, but I wouldn’t say, though you could say, oh, that represents everything happening in the community, and so it varies. Some miss days here, days there. Others, it will really get to that sort of tipping point, and Monday comes and ‘not going’ and remains stuck for some time.
And so, the trajectory of a pattern can vary, we know that. And coming back to what we do know is kids who get help earlier miss less.
Megan Gilmour 37:29
That’s an important point, yes, yes.
Glenn Melvin 37:31
So, if I could ask that question with something completely different, that’s what it’ll be,
Megan Gilmour 37:40
Yes, and you mentioned something before, and I’ll throw it in here as well, because you were talking about not removing things as a punishment, like not removing pleasurable things as a punishment, or a deterrent to avoiding school. Double negative.
But you know, it might be natural for some parents, or parents to do that and say, look, I can’t reward this behavior. But what you’re saying, and I imagine this is part of an early intervention, if you like, at the earliest point, is not to punish that after being curious about to enable positive things to continue.
Glenn Melvin 38:31
Yes, yes, absolutely. I think that the punishment often comes if there hasn’t been curiosity, if you like, if it’s you know, I don’t know what’s going on. I’m going to try everything I’ve got my parent book, you know, all my strategies, and one of them is going to be punishment. It’s in there.
And, I guess, in work with families who’ve tried punishment, it might work for a few days, because you kind of scare the kid into going because the punishment is worse than what they’re avoiding. But generally, it falls over, it’s not sustainable and doesn’t get the long-term outcomes.
But when you introduce curiosity and build this more ‘Okay, they’re avoiding this because they don’t feel they can manage at all with that. Okay, well, we know where to direct our help’. And ‘Well, if we know where to direct our help, why would we bother punishing because they need some help with managing their anxiety or dealing with a bully’. And then it starts to fall into place.
Like, you know, who would want to go to school if you’re going to be bullied all day, like, you know, I wouldn’t want to do that. And sometimes I draw the analogy of a parent going to work, you know, we wouldn’t want to go to work. I know work and school are not equivalent, but, you know, once we start to have an understanding, I think those less helpful things get put away.
Megan Gilmour 40:08
Yes, and speaking of the parent guidebook or handbook, it’s in the appendices, isn’t it? The whole issue in dealing with it. So, it would also be natural for parents to not know what to do and to be confused about how they should deal with this. There’s not really a clear set of steps, I suppose.
Glenn Melvin 40:44
Yes, yes, you’re right. It’s, you know, sometimes I call it, it’s like PhD level parenting. It’s the hardest –
Megan Gilmour 40:56
It’s very complex
Glenn Melvin 40:57
And it’s a very complex issue. And, you know, I think it’s normal for parents to struggle with this. An important message also for parents is they often need their own support as they’re traversing and understanding and responding to this issue, and I think that helps keep them strong and keep them moving and keeps them hopeful in tricky situations.
Megan Gilmour 41:36
Yes, and you mentioned the multi system approach, and I imagine it’s tricky for teachers as well, and teachers not knowing what to do, and then dealing with anxious parents and at the same time trying to uphold school policies around this potentially problematic [issue] as well. So that’s why you’re saying it’s so important for everybody to get the right guidance and set of best practices, I guess, in a complex setting.
Glenn Melvin 42:16
Yes, indeed, and there are resources available for school staff. We’re working on some new ones at the moment. But schools are getting more and more on this topic. It’s not obviously perfect out there, and I think that’s where, if you know, parents are finding that who they’re speaking to doesn’t know, they might ask who else in the school they might be able to speak to, but I imagine anyone working in school wellbeing, will have, certainly some pointers of at least the first steps.
Megan Gilmour 42:54
Yes, and I guess another positive out of a very difficult situation that that’s occurring nationally and globally is that the numbers of people affected is actually increasing the development of solutions and knowledge and evidence-based approaches, so that you know that there are things in the toolkit or the handbook or whatever to turn to. I always look for silver linings, I guess.
You’ve mentioned in terms of critical times you’ve talked about, obviously, the start of the school day, the start of the school term or the school year, can be problematic. Exam times, transitions between school grades or schools even, or in and out of school while there’s, you know, some pattern of absence and attendance going on that’s maybe not the ratio that would be preferred.
Are there other critical times that we might like to put a point on for people to understand?
Glenn Melvin 44:12
Yes, I guess the other one, perhaps just to emphasise, and perhaps we’ve covered it, is starting school and developing good attendance habits early, in school, and getting things off to a very positive start. We know prep foundation years are predictive of good attendance later in school.
I think beyond that, it’s then down to vary for each child, but I think it’s for parents to watch out if their child is stressed or troubled by something not quite looking like themselves, and maybe they’re grades are a little down, or they’re falling behind with their homework, this might be time just to, you know, just keep an eye on things. Those are some of the times when we can see this issue emerge.
And if parents are starting to have those conversations and understand the pressures, and maybe can help intervene or support, or, ‘How about we write that email to the science teacher together?’ and scaffold them and to solve problems, and that might avert a trajectory.
Megan Gilmour 45:33
Yes, so observation as well as curiosity, so a child who’s usually quiet might become rambunctious, or vice versa. It’s the change in the trend perhaps, that might be something to take notice of.
And the other thing I heard there, and I don’t know if I’ll be using the right term here, but from the very get go, that is, you know, heading off to school for the first time, is school attendance hygiene, if you like. We’ve heard about good sleep hygiene. This is a science heading towards being able to provide, I guess, a toolkit for families and then schools as well, in terms of how to establish a positive relationship with attendance and with school from the early years.
Glenn Melvin 46:26
Yes, yes, look you’re exactly right. And I think there’s a few things parents can do here, and I think part of it’s about having conversations with their child around school and understanding their experience of it and keeping those lines of communication open at all times.
But I think the other thing that parents can do is develop relationships with school staff and get to know the child’s teacher and keeping in touch with the school. So then if something does pop up at any point, you already know the teacher, and you’ve had some connection there, and perhaps you’re feeling more comfortable to reach out to them about something that might have popped up.
And then I think it comes back to this, I guess, things for parents to make sure they’ve got the uniform and developing those routines. School’s often about routines and making those predictable and steady, and troubleshooting any special times in the morning before school that can happen as other points to really bed down in those early years of schooling.
Megan Gilmour 47:45
Yes. So that’s from the individual, the family point of view and the child point of view. As we head towards the latter part of our call, you’ve covered challenges and vulnerabilities here, now and in the future around this issue.
I know there’ll be many parents out there who might listen to this, who say ‘Yes, but what if there’s bullying? ‘What if my child is just not being accepted in the school’ and ‘I’ve done everything to do with creating a positive perception about school and education, what about school, what about government?’ So how Glenn, would you encapsulate the kinds of things that schools and governments need to be thinking about? Behavioral issues and, you know, bullying… are some of them.
Glenn Melvin 48:50
Yes. And look, I think there is a lot going on in that space, in terms of creating a very positive school climate, as it’s called, and making schools safe, predictable, places for kids. And there’s a number of programs that schools are rolling out across the school, across the curriculum, and how the values the school has, and so forth. So, I think there’s a lot happening in this space.
And I think, you know, as discussed and greater focus needs to be placed in that okay, getting on top of things early as they’re emerging, whether those be academic problems or social problems and bullying and so forth, or attendance problems. I think that’s the next challenge for schools to be able to be responsive, in that place.
But perhaps where a parent isn’t experiencing the success that they might have hoped, I think, and it can be something to perhaps escalate, to hire people, within the school, whether that be the assistant principal or principal, to ensure that everything that possibly can be done is being done.
Parents might want to seek some assistance again, from a health professional or a mental health professional, if those sorts of challenges are indicated, and that professional may be able to advocate on the family’s behalf with the school, if they’re not having perhaps the success that they might have hoped for. So that’s some initial thoughts on that one that you might have follow up questions about.
Megan Gilmour 50:57
Yes, I think I have some. I guess I have some thoughts about it too. Yes, my own assessment of schools is that this that school models were modeled on an era, in a time that has passed. And there’s a lot of conversation, but not a lot of movement towards more flexible school arrangements
Glenn Melvin 51:25
Yes
Megan Gilmour 51:26
So, I suppose a social model of this would be, and it applies to disability, if all schools were designed for children who have attendance problems and challenges, we would have more attendance, you know, and attendance or presence, you know that work that we’ve done in terms of bridging school absences through technology to make school safe, school attendance safe when physical attendance can’t happen.
So, this concept of how – we might see schools, I hope we see school – become a much more 21st century facing model, as we’ve seen in workplaces and other educational settings, so that children can maximise, if possible, presence at school and safe presence at school, but also be at school physically more if that’s possible.
Because I think all of us can imagine that the best possible scenario is that a child’s physically at school and enjoying themselves and learning and having a great educational experience in community as well making their contribution, which is also very important.
Glenn Melvin 53:01
Yes, look, I think there are some efforts to rethink those models. I think though, change perhaps comes slowly and again, perhaps, as we’re talking, from the pandemic, perhaps some things have been pushed along that were perhaps moving a little slower beforehand. And I think there are some pilot programs happening that might give us a step towards what you’re describing, though it’s certainly still not there yet with that.
Megan Gilmour 53:40
No, and I guess my concern about the pace is that we’ll see alternative models of schooling, well people being forced to take alternative models, which may relieve short term pressures for students and may look like they’re evidence based and working, but in the long run might not stack up.
So, I think that’s also something that’s really important to recognise, that things move along, even if systems don’t. We’ve watched that through history. So, I think that’s a really good place to get to, is, we know and can see that we need change in schools and to school models to make them much more accessible by the largest amount of students with the greatest objective or goal to have people there and young people there and safe.
Is there anything else we should be asking about school quality of life for these kids as we wrap up? Have we missed anything? Is there something you’d like to add, or some things you’d like to add?
Glenn Melvin 55:09
I’d perhaps just like to finish or note the importance of hope, and I guess some of the parents viewing this might feel like they’re on the edge of hope, you know, might feel like it’s slipping. But you just want to steel people and say, look, keep going, keep persisting, your efforts, though they may not have got you where you’d hoped for yet, to continue is going to be in the best interest of your child and their future.
So, it’s really important work, and the importance of parents getting their own support, whatever that might be, it might be just extra catch up with a friend for a coffee or seeking some professional assistance around parenting or one’s mental health, because we know this can be highly stressful.
But I just wanted to note that I think, you know, sometimes parents think, ‘Oh, it’s not about me, and I’ve got to focus on my child’, at this point. And whilst that’s true, it’s also important for parents to be a little bit looked after during such a time. So just wanted to emphasise that, along the way sometimes it gets missed there or dismissed when it’s needed, really, and legitimate.
Megan Gilmour 56:49
It very much is, and I’ll back up that as well, is that we see you, we hear you, and we acknowledge the work that you’re doing and the challenge that it is and to keep going, but also at the same time, be sure to take care of yourself as well. And at least from our point of view, there is absolutely no blame here as we talk about this issue, it’s complex, very complex.
Glenn Melvin 57:27
Yes
Megan Gilmour 57:28
And for our young people, I know, I’m sure this is the same for you, Glenn, but with the young people you’ve worked with and that we work with here at MissingSchool, we just have so much belief in in you, and so much belief in what you have to bring and contribute to our culture, our society, our world, with your own gifts that nobody else has.
And to be able to navigate through this challenging time to be able to maybe draw from it and come out of it with a new a new sense of self, perhaps a new knowledge of self, to take into adulthood. Yes, but we believe in you.
Glenn Melvin 58:22
That’s, yes, I absolutely concur.
Megan Gilmour 58:24
And I think we’ll do this one, which is, what is your call-to-action Glenn, on this topic in seven words or less? It doesn’t have to be seven words but close to!
Glenn Melvin 58:54
Early intervention works. Spread the word about school attendance.
Megan Gilmour 59:04
Yes, great. And I love that. I really love that you’ve given us some very palpable examples of how even simple early interventions like curiosity, like not removing pleasurable things, as a way to coerce school attendance. They’re some of the very simple things that could be profound based on your clinical experience and research. We can start there.
Glenn Melvin 59:39
Yes, indeed. And perhaps, lastly, if parents are curious, we’ve pulled together some guidelines and ideas that might support parents, and they can be found at parentingstrategies.net
[https://www.parentingstrategies.net]
Megan Gilmour 59:55
Great. Thanks for popping that in. I was just about to ask you to do it. So parentingstrategies.net
Glenn Melvin 1:00:04
yes,
Megan Gilmour 1:00:05
And we’ll get that link into our notes as well when we publish this. So, Glenn, you have incredible experience and background and insight and your research efforts, and we didn’t even go into inside the international organisation that you were a part of forming.
But thank you so much for joining us today and sharing all of your wisdom and knowledge to help young people, families, schools and our communities to address this very important issue that all Australians should know and care about.
Glenn Melvin 1:00:51
A pleasure Megan and I hope that’s been helpful. Thank you.
Megan Gilmour 1:00:58
Thanks everyone for tuning in. Help us turn up the volume so all kids are seen and heard. Follow along. Like, Share, Comment, or leave us a review, because we love hearing from you. And if you want to donate, head to MissingSchool.org.au [https://www.missingschool.org.au], because every dollar makes a difference.
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